Question for "Sailor" Bob, 2009

Questioner: I've read quite a bit on non-duality and I've come up with some questions I wanted to ask you.

Bob: Yeah.

Questioner: I have four questions I'd like to ask you. The first deals with the sense "I am", the second about self-enquiry, the third about the desire for a woman, and the last, if time permits, regarding your visit with Maharaj and your struggle with your mind.

The first question deals with the sense "I am". . . The "I am" which Maharaj speaks so highly of, is really that non-dual pure awareness reflected in the dual-natured mind – is that accurate?

Bob: Well, when he says stay with the "I am" he's not talking about the thought. He's talking about that sense of presence, which expresses or translates through the mind as the thought "I am". You know that you are, don't you?

Questioner: Yes.

Bob: How do you communicate that knowing? By the thought "I am," isn't it?

Questioner: Well, if it's even communicable, yes.

Bob: Yes. But you don't go around saying "I am, I am, I am" to know that you are.

Questioner: Of course not, that's rhetorical.

Bob: There's' knowing that that sense of pre sense is constantly and ever there. So it's just a translation though the mind. That's what "I am" is.

Questioner: Well, I have difficultly focusing the mind on it, "to the exclusion of everything else", as Maharaj says to do in I Am That.

Bob: Well, you'll always have difficulty, because we say you'll never find the answer in the mind. See, basically you know what we're talking about, don't you? It's non-duality. Okay?

Questioner: Right. Well, when I try to focus my mind on "I am", my mind creates different feelings with I think are the "I am", but they go away when I focus on them for some time. Surely, what comes and goes is not the "I am".

Bob: That's right.

Questioner: The "I am" is always with us.

Bob: What's focusing on that?

Questioner: That's my question, can you give some advice to focusing one's mind on "I am"?

Bob: (laughs). To stay with the sense "I am", is that right?

Questioner: Yes, to stay with the sense "I am"

Bob: We're speaking right now. Can that take place outside the knowingness?

Questioner: I haven't a clue. I would think not. (laughs)

Bob: Well have a look and see. It can't take place without that sense of pre sense, that knowingness that you are. When we're talking, are all expressions and appearances on that.

Questioner: That's right.

Bob: When they talk about advaita, non-duality, they say "one without a second". They put it that way because one implies there can be other than one. They can't add anything to that so they say "one without a second". The buddhists say the same thing, "It's ever fresh, non-conceptual pre sense awareness. Just this, nothing else. "Again, for the same reason, there's only that.

So you see there can be absolutely no duality in non-duality. The whole manifestation is appearing dualistically. How it appears is not real, but the essence of it is real. It's the one pre sense, the one knowingness, the one intelligence-energy that's comprising everything. So get through the illusion that there's any separation in it. It's all one essence, because everything becomes all-inclusive. One scripture says "See everything as God. "That's what they mean by it, everything.

Questioner: For the second part of the question:"Just be" seems to be a theme in Maharaj's book. He says that if you're asked by someone what spiritual practices to adopt to advise them "Do nothing, just be. In being all happens naturally. "My question is:Is there any difference between just being, and focusing the mind on "I am"?

Bob: See again, with focusing the mind. . . is there such a thing as mind? What's your mind?

Questioner: The mind is comprised of thoughts, ideas, habits.

Bob: Exactly. That's all it is:thoughts, ideas, habits. All concepts.

Questioner: They appear real when experienced.

Bob: What's a concept? What's a thought? A thought is a very, very subtle vibration. When it comes out as words, like these words being spoken, it's sound, sounds are vibrations. Vibration is a movement of energy. So it's still that same essence, which we'll call intelligence-energy, that functions the universe. It is patterning and functioning this body, which has it's appearance in the universe, and it's also functioning and patterning the thoughts.

The Buddhists say that "Emptiness is form". Emptiness is the one thing that is forming, patterning, or shaping everything, every thought, every insect, animal, bird, planet, galaxy, whatever. Emptiness is patterning and shaping all of it, it's just a vibrating pattern of intelligence. The word patterns and forms implies it's infused with an innate intelligence. The patterning, shaping and forming, the movement, is energy.

So the whole thing is a pattern of energy, the body's a pattern of energy, and the thoughts are a pattern of energy. It's one thing appearing as different. The earth we're standing on is also a vibrating pattern of energy. The galaxy, the whole of it, is that one essence.

Questioner: I see. So you tend to agree that this "I am" really isn't of the mind at all? So it's more when the mind is absent. It's just that feeling of being present without any kind of thoughts, without any kind of label that would appear in the mind, just that sense of well-being.

Bob: Yes, it's the mind that discriminates. You've got to understand, every thought you've ever had has been acquired or learned, it's not your natural state. Every word you've spoken has been acquired somewhere along the line. What we talk about is the natural state. The natural state doesn't need any words. You see, the capacity of reasoning develops in the human form and it's a very useful capacity.

But the trouble is, with that capacity of reasoning, being a vibration like any thought is, it's one to be useful at the creative level but then it vibrates into an opposite and tells me I'm not good enough, or I'm fearful, I'm a miserable human being, or whatever. It becomes self-destructive. When you don't take any belief into that discriminating, what is it? It's all an equilibrium.

Questioner: That brings me to my next question which is self-enquiry. Maharaj says in I Am That that the belief of being a body-mind is due to acceptance without investigation. To question the false will destroy it. To my question, when I practice self-enquiry, I repeat to myself:"The very act of perceiving shows that I am not what I perceive. This I am not. What am I? "Do you have any comments on this method of self-enquiry?

Bob: Yeah, well what are you? You are the perceiving itself. It divides into the perceiver, me, and the perceived. Perceiving is the actual functioning of that intelligence-energy. Seeing, is divided into seer and seen, or subject, object – the cause of all our problems.

Questioner: And the seer can not be the seen, correct?

Bob: Right, there can't be a seer without seeing, can there?

Questioner: Right

Bob: And there can't be the seen without seeing. So they both rely on natural seeing. The seer and the seen are seemingly divided in the seeing. But it's impossible. It can't be divided, it can't be separated.

Questioner: I've heard it put "The deed is the fact, the doer is the illusion. "Do you have any other self-enquiry questions you would recommend one to ask?

Bob: (laughs)All this self-enquiry, ask "Who am I? " and all that. Instead of asking "Who am I? " ask "Who is asking the question? ". You realize that the questioner is the question itself. If you're asking "Who am I? " the questioner is the question itself. Do you see that?

Questioner: Yeah, I understand.

Bob: Yes, so you see that the questioner is the question, and if not asking that question, there can't be a questioner. If the question's not being asked, there's no questioner. So that's what you are, without the question or the questioner.

Questioner: Well, giving it a label doesn't quite explain it. (laughs)

Bob: That's right, doesn't it cancel everything out?

Questioner: It does.

Bob: And when it cancels it out, isn't there a naked awareness there, a naked knowingness, unadorned by any concepts?

Questioner: Yes.

Bob: Well you've just had a taste of your true nature.

Questioner: I still see that even though one can have this feeling of one's true nature, that it's fleeting, it doesn't last, the mind comes back. This brings me to another question. You said that after seeing Maharaj you were free from the mind, and then as soon as you left you were right back in the mind. So what happened that made you believe you were free of the mind initially?

Bob: Well I saw, that what you're saying is correct, I was not the body nor was I the mind. I was just that naked awareness, that being or knowingness, whatever name you want to give it. Of course, when I walked out the door I said to myself "I'll never get caught in the mind again" and I walked out the door and that's where I was. But it wasn't the same. They say the false can not stand up to investigation, and I saw the false as false.

Though it came back, could you truly believe it again, when you see something as false? You can't. So it lost it's intensity, though it kept coming back out of habit pattern. See we reinforce this habit that we're separate entities all our lives. Not just once or twice like going to a group or meeting, but constantly throughout the day.

Questioner: Exactly.

Bob: Not just you reinforcing it, but your parents, your society, your schools, and everyone around you, they reinforce that "you and me". So naturally that habit comes up. When it comes up again from intelligence, you remember that you saw through this the other day, so is it true? No, it's not. Once it loses it's intensity, and then the habit drops away after awhile because it can no longer be believed in.

Questioner: So you tend to believe it loses it's power over you, this false belief of being the body. Sometimes when I read the book I Am That I come to believe that self-realization is a final note. You'll never go back to your old pattern of thinking again.

Bob: As long as your embodied you're going to think. And you're going to think in the same way. The thoughts vibrate into pairs of opposites, good/bad, past/future, pleasant/painful. Watch your mind and see it does that. What's it all taking place on?

Questioner: I think it's taking place on that changeless background.

Bob: Exactly. You don't think that, you know that.

Questioner: This consciousness appears real to us while it lasts, but who is it really appearing to? Can you really describe what it's appearing to?

Bob: You can't describe what it's appearing to, because what it's appearing to is no thing. It hasn't got any shape, it hasn't got any form, center, or circumference. So this can never be grasped by a concept. That's another thing Maharaj will tell you:"Try to grasp it with a concept and you fail". He says we're bound to fail because it's non-conceptual awareness.

Questioner: Still, there's a habit, a tendency for me to identify with this body, or person. I still feel like a 26 year old male human being. It doesn't go away just by verbal logic, it's still there.

Bob: The appearance is still the same. It doesn't go away. Does it need to go away? You might feel a value to the body. Can you pinpoint a point in the body that you can say "this is what I am"? And are you the mind? And, which particular thought are you? Are you that "I am" thought? You realize you're not that "I am" thought because that comes and goes all day. If you were that thought you'd constantly have it in mind, but you don't. It's not there when you're asleep, or unconscious, or roaming about the city. Still, knowing that you are is constantly there.

Questioner: You say in your book (What's Wrong with Right Now Unless You Think About It? ) to get rid of the idea of getting somewhere in self-realization – to imagine yourself as already there, and work with that. I don't understand why, because when I see myself as a person it is a nuisance and I want to get rid of it, I don't want to say to it "it's alright, you're allowed to stay. "I believe that action is required to get rid of one's false self-identifications.

Bob: Yes, yes. The action will come up. But, who will be the actor?

Questioner: I guess you could call it God.

Bob: Yes, pure functioning intelligence energy, which causes the thoughts to appear and disappear. But not by the entity. We point out that the self-center, or the ego, is the cause of all our problems. That's the belief in the "me". That's the biggest problem of all, is belief. Belief's never the actuality.

Questioner: Or, you could say persuasion of the "me". Since it's not a fact, it is a persuasion of the mind.

Bob: Another thing:you can pause a thought right now, can't you?

Questioner: I think it depends on the thought, it's urgency.

Bob: Well, just do it right now. Pause a thought.

Questioner: Ok, I can do that. ( a few seconds pass )

Bob: Did you pause a thought, even for the briefest moment? What can you say when the thought was paused?

Questioner: I can say that I was still present.

Bob: No, that's a thought.

Questioner: Now I don't understand.

Bob: When you pause a thought, without thought, what can you say about it? Is it good/bad, painful/pleasant, present/past? You can't say anything at all, can you?

Questioner: I can still say I was present during the pause.

Bob: That's a thought. Really, you can't say anything about it. What you're saying is right, the pre sense is there, but not as a thought. See the difference?

Questioner: Yes I do.

Bob: In that moment you're pried of mind. That's what the mind is, it's thought. When you pause a thought, you're pried of mind, and people try for years to get what they think is pried of mind, not realizing it's as simple as that. See, if you were the thought, as you believed in, that would've been the oblivion, the end of you, but it's not. Now what's the next thought appear on? It appears on what was there when thought was paused – that sense of pre sense you're talking about. But you know you were there without the thought, it doesn't need to be conceptualized, does it?

Questioner: That reminds me of James Braha's book (Living Reality:My Extraordinary Summer with Sailor Bob Adamson) you said you don't have a preference, whether your mind is silent or chattering.

Bob: Right, because they're both experiences. What I am is the experiencing, just the same as I am the seeing - the force divided into the experiencer and the experience. If it's chatter, it's an experience, or if it's still, it's an experience, both are appearing on that when the thought was paused, that experiencing, that seeing, that knowing, that pure intelligence-energy.

Another metaphor is the mirror, do you have a mirror in your room?

Questioner: Yes, I do.

Bob: What's in it? What do you see?

Questioner: I see the reflection of my body.

Bob: Right, where's the body? Your body's in that room, isn't it?

Questioner: Yes.

Bob: Now the reflection of the room is in it, too, isn't it?

Questioner: Yes.

Bob: Now the body's in space, the reflection of space is in there.

Questioner: Well, yes, it's in the mirror.

Bob: So it's all reflection. Now, you can't say those reflections are not there.

Questioner: That's right, the reflection is there.

Bob: In the mirror, yes. But go and try to grab a reflection.

Questioner: Well, that's impossible. (laughs)

Bob: Yeah, you can't say it is there or isn't there, but it appears so. Now, you know you've been looking at a mirror, don't you? But have you actually ever seen the mirror?

Questioner: Well, you can when it's dirty.

Bob: Not necessarily when it's dirty. Have you ever seen a mirror? You've never really seen the surface of the mirror, all you've seen are reflections. That mirror is completely full of reflections. Have a second look and see. In your investigation you know it's a mirror, and nobody can tell you differently. So the same with this:when you know you are that essence prior to thought, no matter what thought or anything else is taking place in it, has never contaminated that essence.

Just like none of those reflections in the mirror have contaminated the mirror in any way, shape, or form. So you've known the truth of it, like the scripture's saying goes "Know the truth and the truth will set you free. "You're free of the belief that those reflections are anything but appearance. Same as you're free of the belief that there's any entity there, that you are the essence in which all these appearances are playing, or patterning, or
expressing on.

Questioner: Almost like the witness of all these experiences, you could say, right?

Bob: Well, that implies a witnesser, too, so get rid of that idea.

Questioner: I had a question about desire. Being a 26 year old single guy, a strong desire I have is for a woman. It is so strong sometimes I question my desire for self-realization in it's entirety, thinking that maybe I would be happy enough dating women, settling down and having a family. In I Am That Maharaj says that this attraction with the opposite sex would not happen if you and the woman were babies, that you both could be naked and happy with no sexual desires. Maharaj states that these desires are due to believing yourself to be the body. So, do you agree with him, is the attraction to women due to my self-identification with the body?

Bob: That's a natural part of the functioning, although we may become obsessed with it. It's natural to bring together what is necessary and there's nothing wrong with that at all unless it's an obsession. Take in nature, a dog and a bitch and be playing around for months without taking the slightest sexual notice of each other. Then, nature will bring about a time when she comes on heat and that'll stir something up in the dog and then he goes berserk. The same with the lions, and every other animal, they come into season. With us, we forget about that, and become totally focused on sex continually (laughter). We chase after it all the time. Then it can become a problem with you. Just take it naturally as it comes and enjoy it, that's what part of the functioning is for.

Questioner: So, it is nature, but, could you say it's one's destiny or karma?

Bob: See, there again, you're believing there's someone who has destiny or karma. The belief in karma, or rather, all your problems root from the belief in "me". It's having a "me" that can be anxious, it's having a "me" that can be fearful, having a "me" can produce desires, depression, happiness. "Me" is the cause of all those effects: depression, fear, anxiety, all my psychological problems. Now, that's all that karma is, is cause and effect. But what happens when you look into it and see there's no "me", that the "me" is a fiction?

Then, ask yourself the simple question "Can there be an effect without a cause? "The cause is a fiction, what's going to happen to the effect? They'll drop away on their own. You don't have to work on it, doing this or doing that or whatever. When there isn't a cause, there won't be an effect. All our problems are subject-object, all problems of relationship. Always relative to this image I have
of myself, this self image, this ego.

Questioner: Can I ask you, after having seen that you are not the body or the mind, how did these basic desires change? Did they leave you altogether?

Bob: Well, no, but now I'm getting too old. (laughter)Old age has come to me. It's no big deal to desire those things, and if they're fulfilled, so be it.

Questioner: I see, but the obsession definitely left you.

Bob: Yeah. See, right now, what desires do you have right now?

Questioner: Just the basic desires to drink and eat.

Bob: Yeah, but you're not even thinking about them right now, are you?

Questioner: No, I'm not.

Bob: Not until I drew your attention to it. So you see, people worry about being free from desires. But, right now, you don't have a desire, right? So, it's not a problem. Desiring to be free from all desires creates more desires.

Questioner: I see. I had another question about your book "What's Wrong With Right Now Unless You Think About It? " you give some advice which I have carried out in my daily life. You say to think "No mind, no thought. "It helps to keep the mind quiet. Even more effective I found was the thought "Nothing is wrong unless I think about" or "nothing needs fixed right now". It seems to tell the mind that it can put it's toolbox away, the worrying is not needed. But, after I practice the latter and stop for awhile, the mind comes back and a small problem is noticed and becomes so apparent in my mind. It is almost like having calmed the mind down for some time, when it is okay and I stop, it comes back with it's worrying and it's more noticeable than when I began. Any thoughts on that?

Bob: Well, when's your mind's stuck, what do you do? When you see it comes up with the same old stuff, "full stop", "don't go there", or "this is more of the same old crap", or "step over that thought". You know, the thought discipline will rise on it's own. The thing is, you no longer take any beliefs in the concepts. And the belief is the problem.

Questioner: Or, rather, the ownership of the belief is the problem. The belief itself will come and go, but once you've become binded to the belief, you're investing your interest in it and perpetuating it.

Bob: You need to understand, the belief is never the actual. You do not believe that you are, you know that you are. It's not a belief. Now all these beliefs you've got about this, or that, are not actual. You weren't there, someone's told you about them. The definition of a belief in the dictionary is unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason; acceptance without positive knowledge or proof.

So, you see, that's not the actual. And we've got these beliefs, and they cause all our problems, especially the belief in a separate entity, "me". That is a belief. When you question it you see there's no entity there. Yet, you can't negate the knowing that you are. You know that you are, you don't believe that you are, and nobody can tell you you are not.

Questioner: I have one final question I'd like to ask. I believe that action is required to rid oneself of false self-identifications, either self-enquiry, constant undivided attention to oneself, or staying in the "I Am". Of these three methods, which would you recommend?

Bob: Well, I'll tell you the method, enquire about the belief in the "me", it's the problem. Now, have a look and see. You're seeing right now?

Questioner: Yeah.

Bob: You're hearing right now?

Questioner: Yeah.

Bob: Does your eye tell you "I see"?

Questioner: No, that's a label in the mind.

Bob: Does your ear tell you "I hear"?

Questioner: No, it's just a label in the mind.

Bob: Right, the eye isn't telling you "I see", it's not analyzing or seeing, your ear's not telling you "I hear" and it's not analyzing the hearing, but the thought comes up and translates it. But remember when the thought "I see" comes up, it's not just a thought, it's an erroneous belief that this "I" you're talking about is what you believe you are. It's been added to that "I" thought since you were a child through experiencing and conditioning. And you've formed a mental picture based on past events and experiences of what you believe yourself to be. So you've got this concept and you believe this conceptual image is seeing, and it's hearing. When all it is is translations. But ask yourself this, can the thought "I see" see?

Questioner: No, the thought "I see" really isn't good for us.

Bob: Well, let's go through this. Does the thought "I hear" hear?

Questioner: The thought "I hear"? No, it's just a label.

Bob: Is the thought "I am aware", is that your awareness?

Questioner: Not even close.

Bob: Ok, is the thought "I choose" the choicemaker?

Questioner: No, not by a longshot.

Bob: The thought "I have desires", is that desiring?

Questioner: No.

Bob: So you see, the thought up entity can't do any of these things, it hasn't got any power to do any of these things, it doesn't have the independent nature. I mean, if it had power it could stand outside of that live essence, that beingness. The corpse doesn't have any thoughts.

Questioner: Well, I sure hope not (laughs).

Bob: So you see, so it's not in the body-mind, it's in that essence that you are. So this ego is a fiction.

Questioner: Maharaj says that identity is useful, but the identity of being a person isn't (I Am That). Do you find, that after investigating yourself and understanding you're not the person, since the person is a mental concept based on the past, like you said. Do you still find identity as a kind of tool in your toolbox that's useful when necessary? How does that work?

Bob: Yeah, naturally it's still functioning through this pattern you call a "you", it goes on quite naturally and effortlessly. Thoughts come up, feelings, sensations, and all the rest of it – the livingness goes on. But without that live current that's going through, like a computer. . . See it's got all the information in it but if the power's not on it's not worth a pinch of shit, it's no good. So the same with this essence. Is it still acting and appearing as the body, mind, entity? But you know the truth about it. "You" as the entity are still seemingly doing things, but if you realize, like I pointed out, that that entity is a fiction, when was it ever real? You realize it never was real. So you've been doing things and taken the blame, or the praise, has never been done by you. You've been lived all the way through by that live essence, that's growing you.

Questioner: I guess the problem I still face is, is that this belief energy, the energy going into believing myself as separate, it subsides for a while but it always returns. I almost wish that once I see clearly that I'm putting all this energy into believing myself to be a person that I wouldn't have to repeat it to myself. You know? Why is the mind so focused on the belief of a doer?

Bob: Well, have a look at that belief again. You see, the belief's never the actual. When you realize that,, it happens often.

Questioner: Yeah, but I wish that it wasn't a continual thing. And that's what I gather self-realization is, is almost a final note, once you cross this finish line, for instance. . . or rather, once the fruit ripens and the fruit drops, there would be no coming back up. There would be no more belief in the separate body-mind. And I still find myself having to provide maintenance to my mind. You know? The thoughts and desires come up, and I turn them back onto myself. I ask "Who's the one having the problem? " or "Who's the one desiring this? "

Bob: And do you ever find anyone?

Questioner: (laughs)I find a chiseled mental image which I have about myself.

Bob: And the understanding it's just a mental image, you know? And you realize the image is not the reality. An image is like a reflection in the mirror. And realize the mirror's always there, like I pointed out. None of it could be a reflection without the mirror. There couldn't be any of these images you have about yourself without that essence that you are.

So it's still there, you must realize this essence hasn't changed, it isn't altered, corrected, or modified, it just is as it is. What appears in it comes and goes. You're not the appearance.

Thankyou to S.S. for this transcript and of course, Bob.

HTML only by Mike Graham, 1 October 2009.